Restaurants and bars / taverns also use atmosphere teams. That does not even mention the eradication of those who did not agree and his cognitive dissonance concerning Hiroshima and working to bring USSR Nuclear missles in Cuba claiming it would be good to use them on Imperialist American. They secretly instigated men who said here come the false charges. Did nefarious conspirators plagiarize his books, hire Result Source and use his evil twin again to go with his wife to meet with his agents to put that $210,000 manipulation in place, all behind the real MDs back? Is to be- Also, you dont want the sheep to get uppity. Monday, December 15, 2008 It didnt occur to me because I havent seen that modeled in a very long time. LOL! mark chose to step down not mark was removed. How can a reasonable person look past that? @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? Penalty Flag? i have been ousted from 6 churches already and at first i took it as me being in error and not able to understand the bible or what the Lord had called me to be like but now i am able to see that i can trust the still small voice inside and the Holy Spirit to give me understanding of the scriptures without having to run it by a pastor somewhere. signed, Still Looking, first i wasnt refering to anything lindell wrote but only his intro for mark driscoll because i have never read anything he wrote and dont want to. This pastor was humble! Thats why every post they make against corrupt churches matters. If there is one thing I think is missing from the entire narrative of interpreting scripture it is the theme of wisdom running through it from Genesis on. What do you think, Albuquerque? jesus gets out of his seat yelling forgive him forgive him forgive him, jesus cheers for forgivers who forgive their enemies. (I always pictured Jesus in that moment comforting stephen with great love and compassion, not screaming at him to make sure and do this thing right) I know people are tired of hearing these messages and having to be acting upon them, but the virus does not care that we are tired. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . They want their congregations and the world at large to believe that there are no amount of misdeeds that a pastor can perform, no matter how egregious, that means they shouldnt be instantly forgiven and returned to the pulpit ASAP. standing. "In other words, you can believe what you want within the confines of the four walls of the church as long as you don't live it outside of the church.". Im not saying that I don't believe anyone, I really just want to learn the other side of this argument. So I can see why some churches would want him on board. No body guards. Nancy, i think theres a lot of truth to what you say, and its more than posdible that people he was addressing in his letters knew at least something about that. Interestingly, he chose the title of his message to be 'Paul the Forgiven' and goes on to say that Paul has a name change because of a life change. Mind you I find Driscoll a tool in case I havent made that obvious. But much of the Australian backlash has centred around Mr Driscoll's comments about women. The word "love" appears, Lindell said, because it would be unloving not to tell someone that when salvation is at stake. This one was different. Of course, we have yet to determine whether there has been a real change in Mark Driscoll's life. There are now more single adults in the U.S.A. than married couples, but churches (even the mega ones) keep going after the married folks. In July they are promoting Lanes next book to the masses. "Martin Luther, the great reformer, said this: 'If you preach the gospel in all aspects with the exception of the issues which deal specifically with your time you are not preaching the gospel at all.' Q. i found it impossible to take advantage of people, i found that if i hurt someone even unententionally i couldnt sleep until i made it right. However, you are on to something with the radical chic concept. . We know that Driscoll should never have been a pastor: lack of formal qualifications, lack of maturity in the faith (too young, and never been a member of a church before he started his own), lack of maturity in general; Whats worse, total lack of good character. Thank you again. Mega-church Christianity with its rock bands, light shows, huge screens, and glitz reminds me more of Broadway than a church. If it is all about numbers and money it would be a wild ride for about five or ten years till it crashes. It is certainly understandable we would see it differently. Youre right. I know you are already familiar with it but for anyone else not familiar, it was written in the context of David and Saul. ( a stage really ) Same old spin .different tune. . OTOH, they may yet surprise us and probably even themselves. Thats why I would use a better example: If you knew that someone is a recovering alcoholic, would you employ him as a barkeeper? Are they the ones that keep praying for their leaders to be decent people who dont crave power and position? I know that tens of thousands left GW before I did and they walked away without the decency to help others. The world has a lot higher standards and integrity than the whole xtian celebrity machine put together, and the internet helps everyone to see that. i tweeted: I also find him vulgar and misogynistic, so I dont see him as ever having been qualified to start with. The text is not prescriptive. Then he stated emphatically: Now let me just say this to you today cause I have no apology for Mark being there; Im glad Marks here. rocks are flying people are shouting opposition and accusations., in christian language christians are like sheep, opponents are like wolves, alpha, saul. Here is Stephen facing public opposition. kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. @ Nancy: No ownership and everyone else is to blame. starting to act animalistic the resistance is increasing, how will stephen respond?. Gramp3 and I were recalling today the first time we ever heard Driscolls name brought up in a church. But. hes a wonderful pastor to the very end. I dont see how or why the Jerusalem church could have trusted him at that point, even though they might (or some of them might) have believed his vision and repentance were real. was paul asking for forgiveness? All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. Not that I dont admire Saul/Paul. I can forgive someone even without an apology. What am I saying? I dont think he is qualified to lead any church or ministry of any size until he exhibits the fruit of the Spirit for a long, long time. You make an interesting comparison. I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation). Maybe six months from now, therell be another terrible story, and well know that the BSd us. Kids will experience life-giving messages and TONS of fun as they watch content created just for them. . Bummer. Youll notice the Pentecostals elevating him are in their 50s and 60s. I cant see those photos without also thinking of the images weve all seen of the impossible circumstances our hospitals are battling every day, Goddard began in a series of tweets. There seems to be a lot of the just finding out new information that everyone already knows about but which now changes everything affliction going around. I can appreciate that sentiment Gram3 and I applaud it. Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. I hope more will speak up in the future. It came swiftly and with great effect. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. I met the pastor. I am thinking visitors, right? In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. I present to you James River church in Springfield Missouri this past weekend. Seriously? James River Church Engaged Employer Overview 38 Reviews 63 Jobs 26 Salaries -- Interviews 9 Benefits 47 Photos 12 Diversity Follow + Add a Review Employee Review See All Reviews ( 38) 2.0 Former Employee, more than 3 years Leadership not always what they portray Mar 2, 2017 - Anonymous Employee in Ozark, MO Recommend CEO Approval The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. Its the same game he has played. After describing the crucifixion of Jesus, Mark Driscoll asks: Who has attacked you? He screamed and swore. The Bible tells us lotz of neet stuff before it happen/happens. And as long as they do, it will continue. Lindell has expressed his views on the topic before. It was like my eyes were open. I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. I asked the mayor, specifically, how he will vote on the matter April 7. ++++++++++++++++. Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. He can be forgiven. Its much harder to leave that way. It seems foolish from a marketing and business view to alienate over half your customers.. If the denominational system is rejected on doctrinal grounds, that only leaves the congregation. James River Assembly, Ozark MO. Associating with Driscoll might make them feel younger and edgy. He is not going to go run to a car dealership the minute he gets out of jail. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts people have said to stay involved in churches to keep them encouraged to follow the Lord and speak up if they are going away towards money and corruption, that is no longer even possible, you can get shunned slandered and prob threats to your life for speaking up anymore. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. This is largely shielded from television audiences who only view a heavily edited 22 minute message. Did you miss a tithe payment? Acts 6:15, they were enraged. Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community so long as you bow to him and stay on his good size. http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/07/hillsong-pastor-brian-houston-found-fathers-sex-abuse-confession-agonising 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. @ Nancy: I had been a pastor and fell horribly due to pride, arrogance, self centeredness, fear of man, desire for fame, etc. I think MD needs a season in the wilderness to really think things out. Why dont Driscoll and the boyz just get it over with and rename their religion Paulianity? The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. It is deceiving men so they will be more inclined to pay those 500+ employees their hundred thousand dollar pay packages. I suppose they could have been made up, although the accounts are supported by numerous descriptions of his pig like behavior. Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? Here is the gist of Driscolls message: its all about me and Im a martyr for the faith!, Same old Driscoll, full of male bovine meadow muffins. Not that I think he failed to tell the truth. when mercy ministries was investigated at hillsong amazingly the leader Nancy Acorn opened up shop in the u.s. and has many supporters among the christian circuit Churches are tax-exempt. Have you noticed the more scandals from some thugs they actually become more popular? If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. Even if Houston hadnt properly researched before the demise of MH, surely he must have learned something to have made the decision to downgrade MD from speaker to interviewee. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, and that other pastor has a history of patterns of behavior and teachings that are destructive it is wise to ask pastor 1 if he has checked him out before he promotes him. As far as people moving into ministry later in life, one would hope they had left that life behind and were new creations in Christ. I just took a year of online classes at one of them. GW youth group also adopted the whole Tribes deal directly from Hillsong, complete with competing tribes wearing war paint and carrying weapons. After surrendering more than 10% of your gross income for years you are tens of thousands of dollars into them at that point and that can really bolster all the cognitive dissonance you feel and strangely work to prevent your leaving. Of course he gave all kinds of excuses, Im young, brash, etc. But as he aged, and he spoke more and more, nothing changed, it got more vulgar, more illicit language, more rude, more obnoxious. Sorry, I dont know why I wrote that, Ive always thought of you as a him. Driscoll should not be granted any level of power till he has demonstrated that he has obtained the humility necessary to handle it. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308 You will hear the Velcro bar/connect center mentioned several times in each service. This was not due to the kindness of the elders (who told us we could not leave because we were under church discipline). sheep are watching and wolves coming. As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. Whats worse, total lack of good character. Yet its everywhere in the US and Australia. Obviously, I disagree with Lindell on the upcoming vote. It was so heretical that even the MH staff saw issues and took it down. Thanks for your informative comment. The women say as part of the program they were taught to believe that they were possessed by the devil, and have since been forced to receive years of professional psychiatric treatment. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. Sex abuse inquiry to hear how churches responded to allegations against his father, Frank Houston, and two other men. The City of Ozark has an established process in place to investigate, enforce, and educate violators of the ordinance, the department said before stating that it does not condone the flouting of health mandates. There will be a day of reckoning. The bathrooms were tiny and not particularly nice. re: Lindells article. since we are all clergy??? helpful or even hopeful in terms of my eternal afterlife. I work with the Online Campus and part of that is getting to be involved in anything Online Campus related. Also, I received another great message from one of our Australia graduates thought this would bless you too What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. Its meant only to address the deception of certain megas. So now is the time ta share with kind folks the destination of their eternal soul? he sees God. The church has spawned countless church plants, charities and conferences. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. This guy had his audience eating out of the palms of his hands. May the Lord bless our search for da truth, and grant us mucho wisdom. i think bills reply echos mine mostly, if your question is what church should look like if we are all clergy. I prefer dealing with an honest atheist (and I know a lot of those) to dealing some self-professing christians. Same deal with Driscoll, just a different sound track. Some scholars put his time in Tarsus as much as 7 years and might be when he took up tentmaking since he was cut off from the rabbincial living. Yeah, these are the things that keep me from believing that MD has changed. Youll see they have no standards regarding truth, salt of light. How can a reasonable person look past that? http://www.richmond.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/article_4d131547-f913-5d43-bfc5-5a292f4c27e1.html, What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. . Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. A lot of people will say, 'I got that. Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. With BHouston, JLindell and MD there is no hope. Mr. Petry was fired and ordered to be excommunicated and shunned for his opposing Driscolls move to consolidate power in the church and not have Biblical accountability before the elders. I am not the most wonderful guy in the world, i am not a saint, but when i asked Jesus to forgive me and fill me with His Spirit i changed inside. MD should never have been a pastor based on how much contempt he has for his fellow man. If we were after money we would need to time our exit before Driscoll pulled the roof in again. Newer ones have theater seating or individual chairs. Thats exactly what I was thinking last weekend! they warm up to stone people like baseball players and lay their coats at the feet of saul to show he is the alpha. (I would have thought he was the lazy one who didnt want to get his hands dirty by actually doing anything but talking a lot), takes it from daniel where god becomes man, if you saw Jesus you would not likely see him as you expect. I arrived a little late here, and this has likely already been mentioned (I havent read all comments). there is a scripture somewhere that says i wont speak against Gods annointed, which was david re saul i believe, and people have used this (or churches have used this to keep people quiet) as a reason to never say anything about church abuse. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. But he was not still throwing men and women (!) So Mars Hillweve done this in the pastyou probably dont know thissome years ago you all purchased a large piece of land in India that now has on orphanage with 100 kids on it and you purchased the land. I hope others will join in at places like this blog and help shed light on local megas in their area. Mark Driscoll has shown that hes capable of inflicting a lot of damage on many people. they may think i just sit around judging peoples apologies or repentance. Steven Reed, Stephens' opponent, had an easier time answering. some things i noticed are in (parenthesis) But there is an interesting bit in Acts 9 right after Paul was doing a lot of debating/bold speaking in Jerusalem, the Hellenistic Jews want to kill him. they get tired of hearing his kind words they shove it into his mouth. Of course BHouston can know about MDs statements in the past 5 minutes of Googling will turn up Wenatchee The Hatchets meticulous documentation, screenshots and all, and Warren Throckmortons extensive documentation, the mp3 of the infamous sermon in Scotland, etc pp. Some people believe that God put them there. @ sam: The virus is having a wonderful time right now spreading through this country, taking advantage of circumstances where people have let their guard go down. When you go to these posh country clubesque entertainment centers their #1 priority is to get visitors connected and plugged in. Where are all the former higly paid speaking gigs that were constant and kept his calendar full with travel? I think MDs desire to be on a stage, at this point, is a sure sign he should not be there. I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. And these leaders present themselves as one thing but are deceiving people the entire time. However, we also see that David and Samuel were permitted to speak out publicly against Saul in truth. James River Church Reverend John E Lindell. I think its much the same thing. I believe they were simply behaving as their normal selves. I know people who were previously baptized that jumped in to get the swag. Anyone who knowingly overlooks all this has no judgement. There are some Calvinists who go in the opposite direction and are very humbled by their monergistic view of salvation. "Although I don't think I'm going to 'love' this column.". I dont think he would agree he is doing well at all. I wonder how much of this concern over gay rights is to deflect people from considering their own deficiencies. HUG so aptly quotes GK Chesterton, and let me paraphrase her, i tweeted: He essentially called the Driscoll victims liars and persecutors. To learn more, visit ja. GW used to require people to take a class and understand the commitment but they couldnt keep their salvation numbers up without the spontaneous element that include giving away free clothes and smart little swag bags for those willing to dunk for the cameras. Yes he was forgiven, but be spent years away from his former life, maybe to relearn what Christ Jesus was about. CCHD encourages individuals who were present at the high-capacity event over the weekend to monitor for symptoms of COVID-19 for 14-days from the event date and seek medical attention if symptoms develop., Church officials defended themselves in a statement issued to KYTV-KSPR, noting that despite what the images show, we take seriously the safety and health of those who attend our services.. Theres a persistent rumor that hes going to bring his show here to Phoenix. ), Warren Throckmorton quickly put up a post on this development and featured the following video. I am the way and the truth, no one comes to the Father, but through Me -Jesus, all those who call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved!. Thats why these massive megas arent likely to represent the narrow gate. He dropped the moral bar for both pulpit and pew that has far reaching consequences on the way we do church. i think that Jesus and God are Awesome, the only crisis i have been having is in my view of the world and the church. There is no painting a happy face on Driscoll. Many teach that when Paul said he was chief of all sinners he was claiming to be as evil as he always was. He essentially called the Driscoll victims liars and persecutors. The youngest generation may be leaving the church in record numbers but at least they have a fighting chance of finding the real God later. this is even a bigger bad root than the bad root of complimentarianism and authorityism. Many times it kept me from feeling like I was the only one who could see this stuff or understood how wrong it is. Based on my experience, this public story should be seen as somewhat inevitable in how they operate. The he takes him back to Antioch where they work together for a year with converted Gentiles. CCHD is extremely concerned about the health and well-being of all our community members and particularly those who attended the high-capacity event over the weekend. What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? You have a holy responsibility to lead your flock in truth and light yet you are deliberately misleading them. There was no light show. He spends the remainder of the sermon talking about Saul who became Paul and forgiveness. 33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, #driscollreturns paul most influential christian wrote most books this explains marks love of also writing books, Theyre having new revelations from heaven haha i mean from the internet blogs that they cant escape. And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. sam wrote: there is a scripture somewhere that says i wont speak against Gods annointed, which was david re saul i believe, and people have used this (or churches have used this to keep people quiet) as a reason to never say anything about church abuse. I followed up on the link and have been sharing this song with families and friends! At some point, with enough outcry and rage from outside, they may hopefully see it as you did looking up at that 3 x 5 card on your bulletin. They will also show several very slickly produced commercials that feature smiling, giddy, laughing people all celebrating together. One of six. to confer grace through the sacraments. Pastors that dont understand the devestation they cause by playing God in peoples lives, especially women and childrens lives, have no business calling themselves christians and certainly shouldnt be in positions where people might think they are speaking for God Himself when they tell them how to live.